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 Posted 11/1/2008 3:03:31 AM |
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tranglos (9/25/2008)
... but buying it now requires a leap of faith I'm not prepared to take.
The last couple of years, for us long time users, has been all about a "leap of faith" - it continues to be so. I used to check here a couple times a week for news on 4.0 - then it was once a week, then a couple times a month ... this is my first visit since March and there has been no movement. Our faith is being sorely tested.  
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| Posted 11/5/2008 8:39:10 AM |
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Rockstar
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| I must say that my faith in NG has been sorely tested, as well. The current situation is almost worse than it was a year or so ago. At least then we knew that no new version was likely in the near future, if ever. We have since been told that a developer for TS had been recruited and that work on version 4.0 had started. Later we heard that a pre-alpha version was being tested, and that a beta should be available soon. That was many months ago, without any more news ... 
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| Posted 11/5/2008 8:34:43 PM |
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| I'm sorry to say that I am with Alan on this. I am very disappointed. If Top Style 4 cannot be rolled out because of lack of resources so be it. Nobody has a right to expect anything but what is disconcerting is the hanging out the possibility when nothing is going to happen. While I am at it, I must say that I am dismayed that requests for support and guidance are more often than not ignored. Since Jack Brewster is no longer moderating, there seems to be nobody in the position to do it, unless Nick pops up. This was not the case before Newsgator when there was a large Top Style community to assist with using the program and authoring web pages especially CSS. It all smells somewhat terminal and I have just about accepted that position. Louise
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| Posted 11/7/2008 5:31:06 AM |
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Ditto on all of that. I hated it when NG got involved. I think it was obvious that TS was additional baggage to them and that FD was the focus - and regardless of the protests by Nick and NG that was not the case it has truly turned out to be the case - IMO.
Great last point, Louise! I really, really miss the old community - I remember way back to the Bradsoft newsgroups. Good times.
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| Posted 11/7/2008 11:14:48 AM |
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@ Alan, Louise, Daf:
I am TOTALLY with you guys...I don't even know why I keep hoping on a TopStyle 4 (I thought I was beyond doing anything which is obviously sheer stupidity). I used to believe NG and Nick Bradbury when they said that there would be a TS4. Like Alan, I also believe the situation today is worse than when we had no hope of an impending TS4...and like Louise and Daf, I am very disappointed and really miss the old community. NG clearly has different fish to fry, which is very very very very sad.
To anyone who would purchase TS3.5, I would still say that it is in many ways a remarkable program; that said, you are (for all intents and purposes) on your own for tech support and do not expect any future version.
I will believe in TopStyle 4 when I have it running smoothly on my computer...and not a second before!
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| Posted 11/7/2008 1:14:22 PM |
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NewsGator
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| I honestly don't blame any of you for feeling this way. TopStyle has lagged behind, and version 4.0 has been delayed far too long. It would be easy for me to blame NewsGator for this, but for the most part it's my fault - I got so caught up in FeedDemon and family concerns that I've really let TopStyle slide. I can say that there will be an announcement in a couple of weeks (hopefully sooner!) involving TopStyle's future, and it includes details on TS4 (it will happen) and beyond. I know I've tested everyone's patience beyond reason already, but please bear with me a little while longer - there is good news coming, we're just dotting the I's before we make the announcement. Thanks and apologies,
Nick Bradbury
Nick's Blog
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| Posted 11/8/2008 5:08:19 PM |
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| Nick, none of us who have been long term users of your programs have anything other than the greatest regard for your integrity. HomeSite was before our time but it was on the recommendation and assurances by Alan Palmer (and Norelle?) of its value to our organisation we took out our first license for TopStyle 1.? against the opposition of management Throughout that we time you have been unfailing caring, even at the time when you were seriously ill and should have been ignoring the program and us while you went about recovery. All of us developed a great regard for you as a person as well as a very talented programmer. None of this means we own your talent. You, just as the rest of us , have the right to go fry other fish and follow your own destiny. Maybe it is because you are the sort of person you are that you feel bound to further develop the program into the future, although you have other demands on your time and skills, and agreed to develop TopStyle 4. (I don't think anything was promised beyond the version you released after joining NewsGator.) Of course users of your program are always going to live in hope that you will continue development, I suspect even when you are in a nursing home. (Look at your HomeSite users.); more so now with the mooted changes in direction for web authoring, especially CSS. Whatever you developed for us we would be unrequited We understand you are a man of your word, and you don't like to fail anybody, but all of us will understand if you cannot deliver, temporarily or for the foreseeable future. Just tell us. (Explanation is not an entitlement) regards, Louise
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| Posted 11/11/2008 6:27:50 PM |
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| Louise, thank you for your very kind reply. You're right that I do feel bound to see TopStyle developed further, and the way things have been going I've been unable to fulfill that goal. But there is good news coming, and it does involve a new version of TopStyle being developed. BTW, I should add that I still rely on TopStyle every single day - it's what I use when developing FeedDemon's newspapers, for example - so on top of everything else, I have a purely selfish reason for wanting a new TopStyle 
Nick Bradbury
Nick's Blog
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| Posted 11/12/2008 8:52:05 AM |
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Rockstar
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| I must say that I agree with Louise's last post pretty well 100%. I feel that I should also point out that it is my faith in NewsGator that has been badly undermined by this affair. My faith in Nick himself has never wavered since I became a user of the early versions of HomeSite way back when, I have always received remarkably prompt and helpful support from Nick, who is well-known for listening to his users and bringing in features that they need (not necessarily the same as those some of them want ...). I have Nick to thank in a way for keeping me up-to-date with developments on the Interweb. When Nick announced he was bringing out a CSS editor I was a little dubious about it, feeling that HTML 2.0 was good enough ... I was of course soon won over to the CSS cause. Similarly, I had hardly heard of RSS when Nick brought out the betas of FeedDemon. I couldn't see much use for a feed reader myself, but I gave it a go. Now I can't do without it.
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| Posted 11/12/2008 9:58:40 AM |
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Ditto Louise and Alan...I have enormous respect for your talent and dedication, Nick. Come this November 27th, I will have been using TopStyle for an incredible 8 years! A number of years ago, I went so far as to say (back on the old Bradsoft forums) that TS was the best software I had ever used, and I meant it! I also still use HomeSite, which as everyone knows is also your baby--with both these programs I continue to manage and build out a 5,000-page site. Obviously, if someone with my limited talents can produce this, HomeSite and TopStyle are both very capable software programs. My admiration for you as a person, and for your prodigious gifts, remains undiminished in spite of this sad saga.
But as Louise stated earlier here, "I am very disappointed." I was quite honored you asked me to test-drive the TS4 beta this past March; but due to an unfortunate set of circumstances (communication problems within the tester group and then your father's health situation) the "new" TopStyle was put on "hiatus." You said that, "When I do return to TS4, it will be my primary focus (i.e.: FeedDemon will be secondary), and I'll do everything I can to make it the release you've been waiting for." Well, I understand 100% about family and health matters, absolutely...for me, they always come first. But imagine my "horror" upon opening up FeedDemon to see your blog in October ask the question: Tagging in FeedDemon: What Would You Like to See? ... and then another post the following day ... and then on October 27th mention of a new beta version of FeedDemon ... and then on October 31st a nice discussion about slaughtering icons in FeedDemon ... and a "final question" on November 3rd (just 9 days ago), asking in relation to further development of FeedDemon "While I’m still in the mood to clean up FeedDemon, where else should I target for simplification?"
Apparently FeedDemon is still No. 1.
Maybe I am being small, Nick. If that is the case, please forgive me, it's unintentional and no doubt a personal shortcoming. However, I have got to believe that I am not the only TS customer who has watched this kind of constant development of and improvement to FeedDemon for years, in fact since NewsGator Acquired FeedDemon, TopStyle...and You!, and has thought, "what about TopStyle?" There have been many comments from disgruntled TS customers and, I have to believe, the ever-expanding group of ex-TS users--here are a few from this forum posted over the past 2-1/2 years:
* I eagerly await an announcement on Nick's blog, or some word in here of TopStyle 4, but nothing ever comes. (5/10/2006)
* If we don't hear something soon I'm going to have to take a look at a few alternatives myself. The complete lack of any news/info/encouragement only fuels the idea that TS is more or less "dead". This was my biggest fear during the whole NewsGator aquisition... and that fear has never left me. (5/10/2006)
* yes - this forum is pretty sterile, we seem to have lost that intimacy we once had as TS users. (5/11/2006)
* I, too, am sad to see what is (not) happening here...the datestamp on my TS3 file shows that I obtained it on July 8, 2002! ... TS 3.1 came (for me, at least) on July 31, 2003 ... and TS 3.12 is dated November 28, 2005. (5/11/2006)
* Not trying to be a jerk... but if a timeframe can't be followed don't state one. I love TopStyle and want to know what's going on with it... but due to no response... I guess I can assume what I didn't want to. (6/3/2006)
from NG: We have plans to start development on the next version (4.0) soon with a purposed release sometime in 2006. (6/5/2006)
* I'd like to echo what others have said in that I miss the community that was built around Bradsoft pre-FeedDemon. I don't see it returning with the current set up here. Also, the responsiveness of Nick to feedback was a big part of the 'feature set' of TopStyle and it's been sorely missed the last few years. So much so that I've looked at other web editors recently. (6/16/2006)
* Honestly I don't see how this is good news. I guess I was naive in hoping that work was being done on TopStyle 4.0 and just not being announced until the feature set and release date was more firm. Now it sounds like ZERO work has been done, and ZERO work will be done until such time as a new programmer is hired to do it. At that point we will have a new developer whose talent has not been demonstrated and who has no familiarity with the codebase or potentially even the community. At that point really, what's the difference with just switching to some other software? (6/28/2006)
* Personally, I voted for new features wth my feet. I followed up on the original poster in this thread and ended up at http://www.blumentals.net/rapidcss/. I felt instantly at ease with the product and haven't looked back since. I was a very happy user of TopStyle and recommended it to may people, right up until TopStyle chose to abandon me. And yes, I do feel abandoned. Nick has to look after his future and I feel no animosity towards him for making that decision. I just would have prefered some honesty over the future of TopStyle. Just my opinion as an ex-user. (8/2/2006)
* I think it is a shame that Newsgator is letting a once-very-good-piece-of-software die a slow death. But I'm more disappointed in Nick, because apparently, he didn't negotiate a future for TopStyle with Newsgator. I'm also surprised that Newsgator is still selling TopStyle at $79,95. You can't sell software which is no longer maintained and no longer up to date with such a pricatag... (12/29/2006)
* Title says it all. [Sell TopStyle to someone who cares...] TopStyle was a great product and it still could be, if someone actually took interest in it. Purchasing a good product with a dedicated user-base and then let it die a slow death (while still selling it) is a disgrace. (12/29/2006)
* I'm disappointed that since buying the product back in April 05, it's been taken over by newsgator, had a minor update to 3.12 - that was almost certainly already in the works, and been ignored for eighteen months. So much for lifetime updates (IIRC). I bought having seen the vibrant forum over at bradsoft, signs of active discussion and development. Here we are in 2007 and who knows when or if another build will be forthcoming. Good product it may have been, but it needs active development. No sign of a beta forum, or feature list, or anything on Nick's blog. Looks like I'll now be another voting with my feet. (1/15/2007)
* Sure they're interested in TopStyle... I mean they are selling it but thats about it. Squeeze all the juice you can I guess before you have to throw away the fruit. (6/8/2007)
* It seems NewsGator is less about "SEARCH. SUBSCRIBE. SYNCHRONIZE." and more about "SELL, STAGNATE, GET SCREWED." For TopStyle customers at least. (6/11/2007)
* To continue to sell version 3.5 to new customers they must expect questions on what the upgrade path and what the price will be of the new product. Even if it was a ball park figure where they said that it would be no more than half the full retail value (as Matt said happened in the past). I did not realise that the other software products that NG write do not have a cost. I would have thought that makes answering revenue earning questions on TopStyle like this one, quite a high priority. I have not purchased the product yet but would be willing to do so if the question was answered. (9/24/2008)
* I've asked about upgrade policy on this forum and have received no reply. My TopStyle 3.5 trial period has just expired today and I won't be buying this version...At the current price and with little support, I'll just wait for 4.0. I'll miss TopStyle, but buying it now requires a leap of faith I'm not prepared to take. (9/25/2008)
* I must say that my faith in NG has been sorely tested, as well. The current situation is almost worse than it was a year or so ago. At least then we knew that no new version was likely in the near future, if ever. We have since been told that a developer for TS had been recruited and that work on version 4.0 had started. Later we heard that a pre-alpha version was being tested, and that a beta should be available soon. That was many months ago, without any more news ... (11/5/2008)
* I hated it when NG got involved. I think it was obvious that TS was additional baggage to them and that FD was the focus - and regardless of the protests by Nick and NG that was not the case it has truly turned out to be the case - IMO. (11/7/2008)
There...enough venting, you get the point. It's all very well that, "there is good news coming, and it does involve a new version of TopStyle being developed" (11/11/2008), but I think we've all seen this kind of "great news" before. I for one would like to actually see a new TopStyle, and not just hear about it.
Here are my requests (yet again) in no particular order:
1--full Unicode support
2--full support (if it's not there already) for .gif, .jpg, .png, and .ico files
3--control over color, style, and other presentational attributes of code in the editor, with the ability to create different code presentations for different types of code--CSS, (X)HTML, XML, PHP, Javascript, etc.--as in HomeSite, Dreamweaver, and other editors
4--a feature to automate the process of "merging" css files, so for example one could take 5 different style sheets and create a 6th one that would contain all the "common" features of the 5 style sheets, then eliminate those specific properties and declarations from the 5 sheets, the purpose of which could either be to create fewer style sheets in a site altogether, or to at least put common elements in a single place so that long-term maintenance would be easier
5--a code compressor...run your CSS, (X)HTML, Javascript, PHP, whatever through it and it leaves your file untouched but produces a greatly compacted and optimized file for putting on the server to speed sites up and save bandwidth; optimization settings could be included for white space reduction, merging attributes listed multiple times among various selectors, reducing color values to fewer characters where possible, there are probably others
6--a feature to clearly and visually show "computed" styles of elements in a webpage, so you can see, for example, which properties and declarations are acting upon a particular part of a page, for troubleshooting, learning, etc.
7--a feature like WinMerge that would compare two files, be they CSS, (X)HTML, or whatever; useful for instantly identifying differences in various versions of the same documents, useful for comparing differences in various css files such as finding screen and print style sheet differences, etc.--such a diff tool would work on CSS, (X)HTML, XML, Javascript, PHP, and TXT files at a minimum, perhaps also others
8--a feature to assist in the creation of a validating RSS feed for the site you're working on
9--inclusion of "tons" of useful code snippets, for CSS, (X)HTML, Javascript, PHP, etc.; for example, the two Javascripts included in the tips & tricks of the TS Help to serve either browser- or platform-specific css files could be included as useful snippets--in any case, a LOT of snippets should be included
10--inclusion of "frameworks" such as to include the files and documentation for the Yahoo User Interface open-source framework, at least the CSS parts of it: reset, base, font, and grids--perhaps there could be some interface between such resources and the snippet functionality in TS---in any case, a number of frameworks might be nice (like in Aptana Studio)
11--inclusion of pre-made layouts by professional designers, perhaps categorized by what level of CSS spec they meet, perhaps by which browser levels they work in, perhaps by type of site (blog, 2-col, 3-col, elastic, etc.) -- these could be used as-is for developing sites or could be adapted by the user, they could be used as learning tools for customers to enhance their knowledge of how CSS works -- in any case, a selection of ready-made, pre-tested code (full-blown finished products, not just snippets) would be nice; Style Master, Dreamweaver, and various WebAssist products all have this to some degree or another
12--inclusion of webpage versions of the W3C standards for CSS, (X)HTML, etc. could be useful and, as text files, relatively small in footprint and useful for reference
13--PDF versions of books like "Eric Meyer on CSS" and "More Eric Meyer on CSS" along with all the code samples could be a nice little thing for folks to get along with the software and, again, would serve a very useful educational function
14--a CSSdef for Konqueror (my site does get visitors who use this browser)
15--a CSSdef for Safari 3 (my site also gets visitors who use this browser)
16--an "Import Layout" option to the Layout Manager dialog, so users can bring in a layout that someone might share with them
17--make clicking on external links in the HELP file open up the user's default browser instead of automatically opening up IE
18--add profiles to test for mobile specs, such as Opera Mini, Opera Mobile, Opera Devices, WebKit, Netfront, perhaps others -- this might provide some unique functionality for TS4, offering useful tools and another selling point for future developers, maybe even a tie-in for creating content for Newsgator Go or the Newsgator Mobile RSS Reader for iPhone, or even your Widget Framework
19--functionality to directly tie code versioning system(s) into TS, as Dreamweaver has in CS4 which provides a Subversion client into the main program
Sorry about this ridiculously long comment; I'm just so fed up about hearing how everyone is "committed" to TopStyle. I won't be bothering you with any more comments, requests, etc.
I do hope there will be a TopStyle 4, that's why I've gone to the trouble of checking back here year in, year out and today producing this comment; TopStyle is a great program that deserves a future. And, selfishly, there are features (see list above) I want for myself in TopStyle--that's why I've come back repeatedly over the many years waiting for an upgrade, because I want more of a great thing to help me in my daily work. But I won't be coming back anymore, not til I hear that there is actually a new TopStyle WITH A LOT OF NEW AND IMPROVED FEATURES. My list plus other folks' requests are reasonable, I believe, for a product that initially came out in a version 3 at least 6 years ago...there's a lot to catch up on.
My best wishes for whatever you and Newsgator decide but, as Louise said, "Just tell us."
AND THEN FOLLOW THROUGH.
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